We had a second helping from Oliver Dickinson this morning, on Homer, archaeology and history.

Taking Homeric archaeology during mods at Oxford was what started him on Homer, apparently.

This April in Athens, OD heard from a lecturer about the discovery of a Hittite epic from the 13th century BC about the siege and capture of a town in Syria. In it the gods support both sides. An Underworld goddess seduces the storm god to distract him from the fighting. The epic was apparently published in 2000. The lecturer who mentioned it said that the Myceneans could have heard it, and so influenced the Greek epic tradition. Hde also suggested there there might have been epics written in linear B, an idea which OD rejects.

OD told us that he knows more about the Trojan War than Michael Wood, having studied it all his life. The 'Mycenean' interpretation of Homer has had a long run. Till the 1960s scholars thought that Homer was based on Mycenean history. Finlay disagreed. In the journal Greece and Rome in ?1986 OD wrote an article on Homer, whom he called 'the poet of the dark age'. In their references to customs and artifacts the epics reflect Homer's own time, the 8th cent BC, not the Mycenean age. The theme of this lecture is that Homer is about the dark age, not a heroic age. Epic is a fantasy, in which reality keeps breaking through.

Whether there was a real Trojan War is a different question. The vividness of the world created by poets leads people to think it's a real world. But The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter present realistic worlds which are not real.

On the Trojan War, the question is not whether there were wars over Troy, which there probably were, but whether there was a 10 year siege and the events described in the Iliad. The site now known as Hissarlik was believed by later Greeks and Romans to be Ilion. But all earlier writings about the site of Troy are now made obsolete by the latest discovery of an extensive lower town 10 hectares in extent or more. Troy really was a big city, not just the citadel that Schliemann excavated. Material from Cyprus found in Troy (and vice versa) shows that it was a centre of trade, with strong ties to the Mycenean world. Mycenean-type pottery found there, however, is locally made, not imported.

When we try to fit the Iliad story into the geography of Troy, there are problems. The plain to the north of Hissarlik where fighting is said to have taken place was, in the bronze age, a shallow lagoon. Michael Wood's idea of the Greeks anchoring in a modern port is unlikely - it is too far from the fighting.

Was Troy VIIa Homer's Troy? No. Troy VIIa lasted for many decades, and the storage jars buried in the floors were not a panic measure in preparation for a siege. So-called evidence of the sack of the city consists of a single arrowhead, said to be Mycenean but really of a common type, and one skeleton (probably an earthquake victim).

Michael Wood says Homer's Troy was Troy 6 - but that was destroyed by an earthquake. What of the general plausibility of the tradition? The motive given by the Greeks is not likely - war over an abducted woman. It is not, however, impossible. Family troubles could lead to war. In the middle east of those days it is recorded that a king of one country sent his wife back to her parents in Amurru, because of some major crime, perhaps adultery. Later he changed his mind and demanded her return, so that he could punish her further; his action nearly led to war.

Sieges of the period did not last long. It was hard to keep armies fed for long. So a 10 year siege could hardly have happened. Modern explanations offered to account for the war as Homer tells it are more myth-making. One such explanation claims that there was a Mycenean superpower in Asia Minor. While there was a Hittite city Wilusa, which may or may not have been Ilion, the Acheava are not Achaeans. The Greeks knew nothing of the Hittites, which they would have done if Achaeans and Trojans had been in contact. We are talking of the 13th cent BC. There is no evidence that the Myceneans were concerned with some trade with the Black Sea, to which Troy was a barrier.

Does the picture of life in Homer reflect Mycenean daily life? Archaeologists and others wanted to believe so. They leaned heavily on views of oral tradition. Milman Parry's theory that Homer was composed in oral style has been generally accepted. OD is worried that the fact that material came from an oral tradition is taken to mean that it is necessarily true. Tradition is there to validate the present situation by reference to the past. When conditions change, the tradition changes. Cf genealogies of Irish Kings. When Brian Boru became (historical) king, his ancestry was rewritten to validate his position.

It is impossible to square the picture of a peaceful Mycenean state, as shown by the Linear B tablets, with Homeric society with its cattle-raiding etc. The walls of Mycenae and Tyrins (the latter took 5 years to build, according to the calculations of a research student) were status symbols as much as or more than means of defence. The Myceneans were not the Vikings of the 14th and 13th centuries BC.

The luxury and magnificence of Homeric palaces is from fairy-tale, not history. Take for example Telemachus' visit to Pylos. Homer's description of the nobles on their way to a wedding feast in Nestor's palace driving sheep shows well-to-do peasants; that is realistic; the gold and silver vessels used at the feast come from a world of fantasy.

In about 1200 BC all the Mycenean palaces were destroyed. There may have been endemic petty warfare in Mycenean times. Soldiers were buried with swords. Prestige attached to warfare. A crater fragment shows warriors carrying 2 spears (as in Homer). Recent Locris finds show a sea battle. This is all from the post-palatial period. Wealth was shown by precious objects, eg Tiryns bronze vessels, jewellery, tripods.

Does the Homeric tradition derive from post-palatial period? There is a mixture of articles from different periods. Some things mentioned are from the palatial period. What about the use of bronze? Bronze weapons were still in use till 1000 BC, even down to 900 BC. Some of the pieces of armour described are old, but these are presented as unusual items.

Throwing spears come only in the post-palatial period. A 750 BC pot show these. Shield bosses come from 1100 BC. But much older shields are said in Homer to have them - there is a mixture of periods.

Descriptions of Homeric houses have been linked with Tiryns etc. But the reconstructions in books have been influenced by the archaeology, and so are not true to Homer. For example, Homer describes a back entrance to the megaron leading to the women's quarters. Such things are not found in archaeology.

3 things in Homer are definitely post Mycenean:

Women's dress

Burial customs

Religion

Women's dresses in Homer are held by pins. But Mycenean dresses were shaped and sewn. Earrings, found in Homer, went out between 1400 and 9th century. The rich range of beads found in Mycenaen tombs are not referred to by Homer. Frescoes from Mycenae show rich dresses, necklaces, wristlets.

Burial. Cremation in Homer is the norm, followed by the burial of the ashes in a container in a pit, over which a mound was raised with a grave marker. This was the early Athenian practice. Known Trojan cremations were not like this. Bodies were simply put in pits. There are rich iron age burials in Euboea, some from the 10th century BC. There were graves of special types and elaborate funeral rituals, indicating the deceased's high status. For example, a man's ashes have been found buried in an antique Cypriot bronze crater (100 years old at the time). A woman covered in gold was buried beside him, and horses were buried with him in the next grave. A crater was set up over the grave. This is very near to Patroclus' burial, and it is dated to the mid 10th century BC. Other graves with such grave goods come from 9th century.

Religion

Religious rituals as described in Homer are most like those of later Greeks. Odyssey 3 describes a sacrifice most fully. Myceneans did sometimes have burned sacrifices, but offering a clay figurine was the commonest method. Many figurines have been found with dedications.

People point out that many Linear B names of gods are known later. OD points out that others, Apollo, Demeter, Aphrodite, Persephone and (OD maintains) Athena are absent. 'Podnia' (the name simply means Mistress) is found in Linear B but not later. Many deities later disappeared. Frescoes show goddesses, and Linear B mentions male gods.

Olympia and Delphi, though mentioned in Homer, were shrines founded later than the date of the Trojan War.

The poems have iron age traces, but are not an accurate picture of the iron age. Why didn't Ithaca's assembly meet in Odysseus' absence? Where were Penelope's relatives, who ought to have taken care of her in her husband's absence? It's all part of fairytale story, with a little realism added.

The catalogue of ships in the Iliad does not give a picture of the Mycenean world. Mycenean sites have been found all over the place, so it's not surprising that all the places mentioned were really Mycenean sites. But the important sites were not mentioned. Homer puts Pylos on the coast - it's really some way inland. The mention of Athens, standing for Attica in general, is suspicious. As for Rhodes, the three cities mentioned are important sites in classical times. Sparta is mentioned, but has few Mycenean remains. Argolid sites named are those which are important in archaic to classical times. Why is Argos given lots of territory? Because it was important later. Mycenae's territory is put further north, to make space for Argos to have some land. Why are Boeotians in Boeotia, when Thucydides says they came 50 years after the Trojan War? Thebes was important in Linear B times, and has Linear B material. Lists like the catalogue of ships could be changed - the people of Salamis quoted a different version from the Athenians.

Epic is not bad history, but a poetic creation. Gods appear on earth. Heroes, monsters, gold and silver vessels, people eating lots of meat.

It's simplest to regard the Homeric epics as great stories and leave it at that.